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KupaMan
I like to draw and complain about stuff.

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Watch me lose faith in Newgrounds

Posted by KupaMan - June 5th, 2008


EDIT: Let me add that my loss of faith is not in Newgrounds itself, or the creative community, both of which are probably stronger now than they have ever been. This is mainly just the way voting works and how users work with it.

I hate to be this kid, but I have to this time. I once made a depressing and nostalgic look back at the "good times" on Newgrounds, and every day I yearn for what it was. I looked today at the top 50 best submissions of all time and wanted to cry. It's as if "OF ALL TIME" means nothing anymore, considering nothing but less than a hand's worth on the list came before 2007.

As of this writing, the top ten are as follows (from 1 to 10): More Brawl Taunts, Epsilon, Apples., Deep Sexy Space, Sonic Shorts Volume 3, The Last Stand 2, Tankmen Infinity, Waterlollies, Metal Gear Awesome 2, and TANKMEN 2. Okay, now look about three inches to the left and you'll notice that the top 5 weekly are now also the top 5 of all time. This happens every week. The All Time List is no longer reserved for the best of the best -- of cartoons that made an impression on the community -- they're just last week's winners.

I'm not calling any of these top ten submissions bad. Most of them, I have written favorable reviews for. But nobody could make the case that Sonic Shorts Volume 3, or More Brawl Taunts, or Apples. best Waterlollies, part 2: synj vs horrid, or The Story of Khale without using such trumping arguments as "it's a matter of opinion," which it may happen to be.

As it stands, though, this isn't to say that this stuff is getting undeserved praise. But rather, nothing is getting real praise. Being on the top 50 used to mean something, and holding a position for a long time was something authors were proud of. It's a signifier that you made something important to people. But now, like some funny analogy I could use to juxtapose two situations, everything is looked upon with great admiration, then moved aside for the next. Everything of decent quality is praised, placed on a weekly list, and then placed at the top of the all time list, then waits until next week when the next five or six submissions push last week's submissions five or six spots down, filtering out the old cartoons with the new. Eventually they'll slip off the end of the list, regardless of whether they were important or not.

So, now I have to give some kind of cathartic idea; an answer to a supposed issue. But, what's actually happening? Is it overzealous voters who merely vote 5 or 0? Is it a growing strength in submissions on this website, and not a problem at all? Is it a shift in the community's focus of what makes a "great" submission? Am I just a bitch? Maybe.

I don't know what the cause is of this. All I know is that it's much harder to feel proud of a good score anymore.

Thoughts?

Watch me lose faith in Newgrounds


Comments

If you think about it Epsilon is new. I just put a 0 on it and guess what happened. It went down by .01 It's not really a lot but I"m only 1 user. Those flashes cannot keep those high scores for long.

That doesn't solve the problem. Outweighing 5s with 0s is a bad thing. I would prefer it if people voted as they believed it deserved. I must be the only person who still gives 3s and 4s to decent submissions.

I assume it is because of the users who only watch the new movies, and vote 5 on all of them. only after the first rush is over, and the flash is of the frontpage and the more weekly top etc., that they can recieve the score they really deserve, because from that point forward only the "more expierienced" newgrounders vote on them.

I can't really see a solution, except, perhaps, blocking the all-time top score in the first month the submission hits newground. Something that is featured long on the front page is probably worthy of a place there anyway.

Voters get a little too excited. They say "Oh shit, this is great, it gets a 5". Then it hits the top 50 and a combination of voters' remorse, increased expectations, and counterculture switch on to knock back down the ones who appeared there prematurely. It's very unstable, but a few classics manage to cling. What can be done, really

This sums it up, but why is it so much worse now? What makes voters so much more excited now than a few years ago?

I couldn't agree more.
Also note that users voting tendencies vote well on rubbish animations so that they can get their grubby little hands on another precious save point, in turn adding to the landfill of junk allowing half-decent attempts at animation to get dwindled out by the '30 minutes of effort' animations.

(^^)

The downvoter's train gets delayed.

I was never proud of scores anyway. Scores, weekly awards, position on lists. All of them have always meant nothing to me, since the day I started in Flash, nearly 6 years ago now.

What matters to me in the response in reviews, more than anything in terms of viewer response. Now, most reviewers are huge morons without a clue at all, and you can spot those right away in the first place, so I can ignore them. Every now and then, though, you get a real peer and colleague who knows his shit and will leave you a review that is really worth something.

The reason I animate is to tell my stories. That simple. It's not about pleasing people, it's about saying what I need to say the way I need to say it. This is why you'll never see some video game parody from me, or something just vying for cheap laughs and high scores. That stuff I just find pathetic.

Fun is a part of it all too, but I can't have fun making something like Metal Gear Awesome. That wouldn't be anywhere near as popular as it is if he was without swearing and video game characters.

All this to say, I agree with you. The scores mean nothing here these days.

my latest flash didn't get top 50 of all time or anything, but i wasn't quite as proud of the daily third i got as i might have been for many of the same reasons you listed.

_ngfan14 says:
If you think about it Epsilon is new. I just put a 0 on it and guess what happened. It went down by .01 It's not really a lot but I"m only 1 user. Those flashes cannot keep those high scores for long.
_Epsilon is a good game, if flashes don't stay much longer than one week on top 5 is because of people that vote 0.
_Tell me what you think about, please

i completly agree, the top-50 submissions dosent mean the same as it did before.

before you had to be really good to get into the top - 50 now adays your submission just have to have refernece to pop-culture.

I feel your pain. I noticed this a while back, too. Waterlollies has deserved its rightful place on that list, though. I have to agree with EvilEgg, because it will most likely stay this way....

This is something that's been going through my mind for a while. Newground users are very iffy with their voting. It's either a 0 or a 10. There's no serious criticm behind their comments. It's either senseless praise or senseless dislike.

The system needs to be refitted with new ways of percieving submissions. They shouldn't have changed the old rating system to a basic "1 - 10" system. It should have been changed to accomodate actual artistic and technical points in pieces (seperate specific ratings for games and movies).

For those of you that don't remember, the old voting system used stupid points like humour, violence, interactivity and such. This could have been implimented a LOT better.

Looking at my "Gamer Tonight" submissions, I get increasingly frustrated that they can make the top 50, when they're not exactly what I'd call my "best work". I'd rather see something I spent endless time and effort on achieve that rank then something I made in 5 - 6 days.

I totally agree with you on all your points. Something needs to be done to stop this 0 or 10/0 or 5 voting.

I remember when the NG voting was just brutal. I blame YouTube. People are too easily amused now.

Yeah, I totally agree. People usually take personal offense when you tell them their stuff is overrated, but it's true. I love the Gamer Tonight stuff, but I really wouldn't suggest they're landmarks in Newgrounds history, to be inscribed onto the granite plates of a glorious tome, recounting the epic history of the Newgrounds portal. Similarly, if I still made cartoons, they'd probably get onto that list occasionally, which is something I'd totally disagree with because I suck, and then I'd be hated by that counter-culture NegativeONE mentioned.

It's irritating to open the Reviews section of any popular flash, order them by review, and note the 37 out of 41 pages be perfect 10s, and the remaining pages be dedicated to 9-0. I occasionally give out tens, but it loses all of its significance. On top of all that, harsh reviews I've written (I gave this Sonic Nazo thing a 6/10) get deleted. It's quite irritating.

i think more or less what's happening is that the ng crowd is growing, and with that you gain more and more people who vote high just because something is on the front page. but the moment that front page item leaves it is thrown off the high scores list and is replaced by something else just as easily. i've seen this with so many things, something is only as good as the individual users online. so we are getting to be more of a popularity thing and so people are feeling basically "it's the way to go" kinda like hot topic. not to say that these things aren't good, but when you get a massive support and user base you lose the niceties.

I've been watching newgrounds for years now, and it truly does feel less worthwhile, hell how abouts we just scrap this site and make a new one xD then we can have it back the way it used to be! For the artists!

mmm, please feed the artists.

-glumerlink-

For the most part I completely agree with you. It is a shame that some videos on the Best of all time list only survive there for so long. I mean it is called, "ALL TIME" for a reason. It is not the "For about a week or so" list.

i think its good. people need to work harder now. the top 50 still means something, you just have to really beat the shit out of everyone else. and for those who dont work hard but still get way the hell up there time and time again.. they're just riding waves that will eventually crash, and they will go down with them >:) case and point: anyone heard from legendaryfraud lately??

Brawl Taunts isnt fucking funny at all

That's not my point at all. I enjoyed it. Just not more than any other flash on Newgrounds ever.

my solution to this is to make al front page submissions invisible on the top 50 of all times, after they get out of front page, add something like a month, and them they can become visible again

"Apples" was great. Maybe you undersore it because there is no fight scenes and no awsome characters. Isn't this "a matter of opinion" ?

Cram it.

And all of those submission you listed will be surpassed by the older better submissions within 2-3 months :|

And More Brawl Taunts is waaay too overrated imo

I think davaca is on the right track with an idea for a solution to this legitimate issue. He/she said, "I can't really see a solution, except, perhaps, blocking the all-time top score in the first month the submission hits newground."

I would like to know exactly what kind of data/statistics Newgrounds stores. Does it keep a vote tally for each of the six values on every submission (4000 - 5's, 7000 - 4's, etc.) or does it only keep track of the number of total votes? If it keeps a tally for each value then you could consider things like median and mode scores as significant factors in determining an All Time score. If it only keeps track of the total number of votes and a running average then I think the only solution that could offset the initial surge of high scores would be to apply a formula that manipulates/lowers the weight of votes made while the submission is on the front page (and a similar but more forgiving formula for submissions that make the daily top 5 list but don't ever hit the front page). It wouldn't be fair to entirely discount the voting made during a submission's stay on the front page.

Here's my idea: Have three scores for every submission that makes the front page or daily top 5. For simplicity's sake lets call them scores A, B and C. Score A would be the average score as it is currently calculated. Score B is the average score after a submission has left the front page (more on this in a bit). Score C is static and would be a snapshot of the score at the moment it leaves the front page or daily top 5 list. Score B is the one used to determine a submission's ranking on the Best All Time list. Once a submission enters the second score stage (B) then each individual vote should have significantly less power. I'd say have every vote in the second stage be worth a half point regardless of the voter's experience level. And to be fair and not completely discount votes made during front page time you would apply score C, the front page snapshot score, to score B in a statistically significant way. How much weight score C should have on score B, and exactly how it is applied (either a one time event or a continuous influence) is an issue that would require careful consideration.

I just want to clarify that I think this would only be a good idea for front page and top five submissions and all others should be scored using the current system which allows for mobility if a submission turns out to be a "buried treasure". I could go on but I think if you've read this far you probably feel like you've read enough!

The sad thing is that even if something like this was implemented it would not restore all the legitimately classic submissions that have long since been bumped off the top 50 list.

TL;DR LAWLZ!!

For reals, though. This issue isn't a big enough deal to have anything done about it. But it would be interesting to give, say, the top 2,000 users the ability to mark like 5 to 10 submissions per year (going back and forth) to nominate something as being a classic. For instance, I could "spend" 5 special points on 2004 flash submissions and then those would be ranked on lists of best of that year, so you could look back and see that the top NG users agree that Bitey of Brackenwood was the most important flash of 2004, and There She Is!! followed it up or something.

Of course, this is all too much for just some nifty and superfluous feature that is basically done manually for the Portal History of Newgrounds anyway.

I'll just add that most stuff doesn't last on that list that people arent constantly voting for

second, this is how it is with the entire internet...have you seen the shit that's got 50 million views on youtube?

its all very depressing (and yes im tired of seeing tankmen 2 up there)

My point is that Newgrounds didn't used to be like this. It became this over time. Is it the influx of casual members or what?

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